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    « Is The Nephrologist to Blame for Intradialytic Hypotension? | Main | Is Hemodialysis Dangerous? »

    March 13, 2010

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    Dori Schatell

    Tell it to CMS, Peter. They're the ones who need to hear this. Or think about a class action suit...

    Peter Laird, MD

    Dear Dori,

    I believe CMS already hears the advocacy of people such as yourself, Bill and Lori, yet they will not move until they are compelled. As far as the class action suit, I am actually surprised it has not yet happened. But correct me if I am wrong, I do not believe that you can sue the government in such an instance. Nor can you win such a suit until the standard of practice is breached. That is why I continue to plead with my nephrology colleagues to step up to the plate and change the standard of care here in America to that which is already established in so many other nations to the benefit of all. I simply cannot get past their fiduciary responsibility in leading this much needed change. It truly must come from within the nephrology community. I don't believe CMS will move until the nephrology community moves and reestablishes a new standard of dialysis practice in America.

    Zach

    Seems like the place to bring about change in the standard of care here in the U.S. is to influence the members of the NKF KDOQI. CMS tends to follow their lead.

    Has KDIGO taken any position on these issues? It is, after-all, "a global non-profit foundation dedicated to improving the care and outcomes of kidney disease patients worldwide."

    Bill Peckham

    The first step is to convene Technical Expert Panels that inform decisions that lead to National Quality Forums or pilot studies or comparative effectiveness research or trials or ...

    The first TEPs were last week, the Data TEPs next month will evaluate what sort of data collection would be needed and how it could be accomplished based on the work product of the first TEPs.

    As a participant I signed a NDA about what we actually discussed but I can say it was some heavy lifting. Serious people are taking this seriously.

    Peter Laird, MD

    After living on hemodialysis for over 3 years and reading dialysis articles on a daily basis during that time, I am amazed to find this entire new aspect of dialysis care that I was unaware of until a little over a week ago. Understanding that dialysis patients in general have a higher risk of sudden cardiac death and cardiovascular outcomes is much different that understanding that dialysis is associated with active myocardial ischemia in the majority of patients. To me, all of the other issues that the TEP is looking at are secondary to this central fact leading to myocardial stunning in the majority of patients. Any study looking at HTN control, fluid control, anemia, etc. must take this into account and control for it in any studies done in the future.

    How can you reasonably debate survival issues such as the HEMO study on mortality differences if myocardial ischemia and myocardial stunning were not part of the primary end points. I believe that it is the central dialysis issue to be elucidated and solved. It is the biggest game changer that I have learned in the area of dialysis complications. For me, it has answered a lot of questions that I have had professionally and personally. I believe that the more we learn about this complication, the more it will be in the forefront of the dialysis treatment paradigm.

    Bill Peckham

    The TEPs had a specific charge:


    • Review and evaluate evidence germane to the development of
      new ESRD quality measures in the specified topic areas,

    • Propose new ESRD quality measures for the specified topic
      areas,
    • Provide recommendations and expert input on the
      specifications of new measures

    The "specified topic area" most relevant to CHF was "Fluid Weight Management". Coming up with measures is not quite the same as identifying the problem.

    Peter Laird, MD

    The difficulty with the prevalence of myocardial ischemia in dialysis patients is that these episodes are clinically silent compared to the normal population who experience chest pain during myocardial ischemia in most cases. Myocardial ischemia can be detected at the bedside even with out symptoms by common bedside measures such as electrocardiographic monitoring and cardiac enzymes such as troponins which rise quickly in the setting of myocardial ischemia.

    CHF in dialysis patients appears to be an end organ result of chronic, silent ischemia as noted in several studies. I am completely perplexed on why myocardial ischemia is not one of the clinical measures in the TEP since myocardial ischemia and myocardial stunning have been a topic in the dialysis literature for over a decade that leads directly to CHF, LVH and sudden cardiac death. Why is CMS and the TEP silent about silent myocardial ischemia when I could lose my medical license for missing just one case of the same thing in the ER setting? Just call me perplexed in Idaho. I just don't understand why this isn't already the central issue of dialysis related complications and sudden cardiac death.

    Peter Laird, MD

    Zach, as always, that is an excellent question on what is the KDIGO position. I will try to look over their information to see if they have already commented on this and let you know if I find anything.

    Bill Peckham

    Peter you're the doctor but isn't it true that not all myocardial ischemia is the same, and as you say, angina's clinical course in dialysis is distinguished from its expected clinical course - in dialysis it's silent.

    When people say we need a RCT in more frequent/long dialysis this is the sort of thing that might show up right? If the very nature of dialysis is riskier than improper hydration, then more frequent dialysis may be riskier!

    I think that is unlikely but aside from showing evidence of myocardial ischemia in dialysis you'd have to show that the myocardial ischemia was a risk factor independent of other factors ... such as LVH and/or fluid over load. (There would be many other things to control for too but you get the idea)

    Then upon showing myocardial ischemia is an independent risk factor you'd have to show an intervention was possible based on an available trigger. At that point you'd be in the TEP ball park.

    Bill Peckham

    One other point - if the myocardial ischemia is shown to be independent of fluid it wouldn't be covered by the TEP I was in. If it is an issue with the bath's K then another TEP may have made a recommendation on K levels. (referencing your post today and the Dutch study)

    I do believe CHF is related to fluid. There may be additional issues related to low K baths, there are no doubt plenty of issues to go around. There is good data showing that LVH correlates to mortality and hospitalization risk.

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